Episode Transcript
[00:00:21] Speaker A: Hey, friends. Welcome to the first official episode of Forever but Not Always. I recorded these first two episodes nearly two years ago, but right around the same time, I also found out I was pregnant. So I decided to focus on mom life for a little while. My first guest had to be my favorite, gabrielle Hartley. I'm so lucky she sat down to chat. With over two decades of experience as a leading attorney, mediator, and acclaimed author, gabrielle Hartley is a true trailblazer in the realm of positive divorce. Her books better apart. And the secret to getting along are must reads. Whether you are going through a divorce or just navigating conflict in your life, we chat about her Better Apart book and her views on mediation. I just adore her, so enjoy.
[00:01:07] Speaker B: Good morning, Gabrielle. It's so good to see you.
[00:01:10] Speaker C: It's so good to see you, as it always is.
[00:01:13] Speaker B: I am so excited that we're finally getting to chat. I talk about you, I feel like all the time, every time I'm talking about mediation and alternatives to stay out of court, your name comes up. And so being able to spend some time with you today is really exciting for me.
[00:01:31] Speaker C: Oh, I always love to spend time with you. So thank you so much for having me. I'm excited to be here.
[00:01:36] Speaker B: Yeah, absolutely. So I got introduced to you by reading your Better Apart book. Can you talk a little bit about how you came to writing this book and what really inspired you to put this together?
[00:01:52] Speaker C: Absolutely. So just to back up a little bit. So I've been a divorce attorney and mediator by the time I wrote the book for about, say, 20 years at that time. And I felt like the divorce process is so negative and froths up and creates so much chaos in people's lives. That's not necessary. And there's so much fear that people have when they're going through the divorce. And I always kind of imagined how cool it would be to be able to put people together in a room and let them know that they're really not alone. And at the time, there weren't all these divorce support groups.
There weren't so many people working toward what I call the positive divorce movement, trying to turn the frown upside down. It was really a lot of people in their silos being quiet and divorce is very much in the shadows, and there's a lot of shame and stigma around it. And I wanted to really burst that free my why do I care? Why did I do it? I wasn't thinking about business.
It was more like when I grew up, my parents were divorced and I was nine and my brother was six, and they decided they were going to share custody now. And it was like 1979. Shared custody was not like a thing back then. So we were this sort of high functioning divorced family. Everybody kind of got along, and it was really viewed as weird. And my parents were kind they're almost braggy about how well they got along, and I did not experience it as so great. All the like, there was plenty of chaos. And it wasn't until I worked for a divorce court judge in New York City where I started to resolve I resolved hundreds of cases during my time there that I saw, number one, how lucky I was, and number two, how the divorce process isn't where it needs to be. So that's my long winded answer for why I wrote Better Apart. And my hope was that when people are going through the divorce, they can actually use better apart as almost like a source book, like whenever they're feeling crappy, to open it to any page and get some quick actionable. Tips of what they can do to slow down that emotional brain, engage that thinking brain, and make better decisions that are going to serve them and their family.
[00:04:31] Speaker B: Yeah. What I loved so much about it from an attorney mediator position, too, was seeing the non legal approaches and the different therapeutic ways that people can really take control of their divorce. Is there anything specifically that you find was helpful not just for the divorce process and writing the book as you discovered these different therapeutic processes that you actually implemented with your clients even before kind of preparing for this book? Anything that you really drew that you thought was, oh, this is working for my clients. This needs to be talked about.
[00:05:10] Speaker C: Yeah.
And I don't think I talk about it exactly squarely in the book in a particular section, but the whole concept of getting to the why, like acknowledging feelings, that is the most important thing. Chelsea when I worked for Judge Sunshine, I was really young. I was, like, just about 30. And I noticed that. So the way the job worked is, I'd go in a back room, it would be the two lawyers, the two people, they're, like, right on the brink of trial. Right. They're incredibly antagonistic. Everybody's, like, all set to go. They're wasting all their money on fighting, and they're stuck on some position. And it was almost dumb luck that I realized that once somebody cried, the case would come together, because when they cried, it was like a release. They were feeling heard for the first time, maybe. And so I would say things that I don't know if I'd even say them now because I'm so much older and maybe a little bit more sensitive, maybe a little. But I would say it sounds like it feels like your whole life was a lie, which is something that people feel but don't say or don't admit to themselves.
[00:06:23] Speaker B: Right.
[00:06:24] Speaker C: And I cannot tell you how many people have felt like that. And then when they acknowledge it and they feel seen by the mediator, heard maybe by the lawyers, they can release it. And suddenly that Sunday overnight is not as important anymore.
Keeping all the furniture, just the problems melt away.
We're often fighting about the wrong things.
[00:06:54] Speaker D: Right.
[00:06:55] Speaker C: We are fighting about the what instead of hearing the why.
So I think that that's something I sort of learned on the job long before I wrote Better Apart.
Also, the fact that a step back is a great way forward is really true. And that doesn't mean that you have to get into all the weeds and reassess the way, well, his mother did that you don't need to go back to when you're each ten years old, but just like again, taking stock, what are your needs? What's going on? And when you get that, everything really falls in place. So if you're listening, if you're a listener and you are embarking on a divorce and you just feel like, oh, there's no point to going to mediation, I have to go to court, just stop and ask yourself what else is going on? Do I need stability? Do I think my soon CBX needs security? Do I need more a sense of respect. Like what is the driver underneath the driver that you're aware of? And when you know what the other person's driver is and you can give it to them, you'll get more than you want. That you will get more of what you want when you give them more of what they need.
[00:08:18] Speaker B: Yeah. I really love kind of how you ended. There is that is one thing that I think is so difficult for people going through divorce is separating the fact that you can have all these emotions and you can feel this way and it's actually good to say all of those things, get it out, express yourself, because you're helping the other person understand.
Now, not everybody's capable of understanding in the same way, but if you have the right mediator there, they're going to point it out in a way that maybe that person can understand. So I absolutely believe that expression is so necessary.
[00:08:57] Speaker C: Yeah.
And then taking that understanding and trying to figure out what else can I give that person to satisfy that need?
[00:09:05] Speaker D: Right.
[00:09:06] Speaker C: Because I was doing a mediation earlier this morning and it's the classic conversation. Everybody wants to stay in the house. We're not sure who can afford the house.
And so the way we look at it is like buy, sell. Either we're going to buy each other out or sell. But there's so many other alternatives.
It doesn't have to just be one way. It may be that the person who gets to stay has to pay a premium for the buyout, or if the person who gets to stay because they're agreeing to stay in a school district for ten years and then they decide in year seven to move. Maybe there's a clause in there that says if they should move before the youngest child has completed twelveTH grade or whatever it is. Eigth grade.
Then the person who moved out gets like a sweetheart clause where they get a bunch of cash that they otherwise wouldn't have been entitled to. There's more than one ways to address things. You just really have to think about how you can be creative to get there.
[00:10:09] Speaker B: Yeah, absolutely.
One thing I find myself saying all the time, without necessarily trying to, is talking about this positive divorce movement, right, which you are the founder of. I say that there is movement to a positive divorce. I say there is this positive divorce movement all the time with clients and other people because I'm starting to see it with the conversation. So why don't you tell our listeners a little bit about the positive divorce movement and what it really means to you and what you're seeing, talking about this as you progress?
[00:10:43] Speaker C: Yeah, absolutely.
The positive divorce movement was started because there's sort of a global sense of shame and stigma around breakups of long term relationships.
And for me, it's not just about not being able to talk about this thing that half of all of us go through or are close to somebody who is going through or has gone through.
There's trickle down. There's like a legacy that the divorce leaves.
[00:11:12] Speaker D: Right.
[00:11:13] Speaker C: So if you are feeling less than, if you're feeling a sense of shame or stigma because of your divorce, and you have children and they are being raised by someone who feels bad about themselves, they're more likely to feel less than.
[00:11:28] Speaker D: Right.
[00:11:29] Speaker C: It's like if you're the survivor of a trauma, your kid is going to have some of the aftermath of what you haven't shed. And so I just thought I mean, I didn't really think about it, Chelsea, to be honest, but maybe I was trying to shed my own aftermath from growing up with my own parents divorce. And I had a boyfriend who used to talk about his family, and he would preface it by saying, it's different, blah, blah, blah, it's different.
And I always felt like, are you saying it's better?
That's how I read it. And it was really irritating to me and my parents again, they had a great divorce. Like, not perfect, not like it was. Everybody always got along. There was plenty of dysfunction.
There was plenty of dysfunction, but it was still fine. And my brother and I went on to be normal people with stable relationships and jobs, and we're very close with our step or bonus sister who's our age.
And then I had a step brother who my dad divorced his next wife, but I'm still very care very much for him and close with him. So, I mean, I just feel like the whole concept of the positive divorce movement is all about feeling good in our imperfect lives because that's what we all have. Anyway, you're a divorce lawyer. You know this as well as I do. Like sitting across the room with people day in, day out for years and years, and doesn't matter how rich they are, how poor they are, what they look like, what car they drive, people make messes, enter messes, are in messes of all different kinds. And if you're in your own mess, you're not alone. It's okay. And that's the whole point of the positive divorce movement. It's really a movement toward the sense of feeling good enough. But I didn't want to call it the neutral divorce movement, where I see the positive divorce movement going is there's a lot of traction now. Back when I started practicing in 1995, the idea of positive and divorce really did not go together. It did in my mind, but that was viewed as very strange.
Even in the early two thousand s, I think it was still viewed as pretty strange. It's only really in the last five or six years, I think largely because of certain professionals like Susan Guthrie, like me, like, you know, who have varied backgrounds in the divorce arena, we realize what a mess it is. Like, Laura has had several really good breakups, right? And so she goes very publicly and talks about, you know, she's a celebrity divorce attorney, and I think that's been really helpful. And Susan has the Divorce and beyond podcast, and she trains people, and I have the Better Apart blog and I have the Better Apart book, and I'm constantly going on podcasts and putting it out there. And then there's a lot of younger lawyers who are starting to do the same kind of thing, right? And so I feel like now I'm going to really date myself. There used to be like a fabrice nature organic shampoo commercial way back when, where it would say and she told two friends and so on and so on, and the TV screen would start with one woman and her friend, right? And then it would be four women and eight women, and it just kept on. And then by the end of the commercial, the entire screen was tiny little boxes. And I think of the deposited worth movement like that.
We're just growing, growing, growing. There's more and more people who think they can get along where the narrative isn't all about what a jerk their ex is.
[00:15:31] Speaker B: Yeah. And I'm actually discovering that through participating in a lot of these different trainings, through just engaging with people through Instagram and podcasts and seeing that not just the people and the listeners who are going through the divorce who are just looking for that reassurance or information about their experience. Right. There's all these divorce professionals that are jumping on board and listening and don't want to be in that litigation mode. They're seeing it. They want to live their lives just the same, and they want to help people going through divorce to see the big picture. Because now we're in a place where people in their 30s are getting divorced. These are millennials, right? These are people who have seen the big picture about, hey, I don't want to go through what my parents went through, where they were litigating their divorce for years.
[00:16:20] Speaker C: It's so stupid, right?
I think that that generation, your generation is like ready for this. Whereas remember, divorce only became commonplace in the it was treated the same way as like a car accident. It's just like a regular court case, but so inappropriate for most cases. Now I just have to know, I am of counsel to a major New York City litigation firm for a reason, right?
There are people that you can't mediate. So for anyone who doesn't know, mediation means that you're sitting with a third party, neutral, impartial person who's going to help you sort through your differences and arrive at an agreement. And depending on how your mediator is trained and how experienced they are, they may give you some advice versus just letting you arrive at something. And remember, if your mediator has 3000 divorces under their belt mediations, they're going to have some more ideas than someone going through their first divorce. So you want to find a mediator who is going to let you come up with your own solution, but also is going to give you some really good counsel that's in my opinion, there's other mediators who feel very strictly like.
[00:17:47] Speaker D: You just have to come up with.
[00:17:49] Speaker C: Everything on your own. So definitely don't just go with the first mediator. Find out what their approach is, what their style is.
Also, if you have a spouse who is just impossible to deal with, like, they won't give you financial disclosure, they don't call you back, they don't follow through on things.
They're difficult in any set of ways. You might have to go to court. And I have a whole section about that in Better Apart because you can't decide it's going to be a sunny day.
[00:18:26] Speaker B: Yeah, I mean, we see that a lot where clients come in and they are wanting to mediate and they really want to stay the court. They're looking like, I don't want to spend a bunch of money, but once they sit at the table, it's really not the case, right? They really don't want to mediate. They just want to attack and blame.
And I find that with the right strategy, the right touch, sometimes you can turn those cases around and help even difficult cases. But there are some people, I think, that just have this headspace about what divorce should be like and what they're entitled to and what's fair.
Entitled and fair are like my least favorite words every time they come up.
[00:19:03] Speaker C: Oh, me too.
[00:19:05] Speaker B: Every time they come up in mediation, I'm like, well, let's separate those words because those mean different things to different people.
And so what we're really talking about is the choice of two parties deciding that they don't want some stranger that's just going to look at the law and just going to apply facts. Do you really want that person to be making decisions about your life, your finances, your kids? Or do you want to be able to come up with those agreements yourself regardless of whether the law applies? And some people think, well, shouldn't the law apply regardless whether I'm in mediation or not? Well, how do you want it to apply? But it doesn't have to. And so one thing I always struggle with in my particular area I'm in Northern California, while there's lots of family law attorneys, not a lot of people are really talking about mediation. There's only a handful of mediation firms, or there's a couple mediators who are either retired litigators and are kind of doing it to wind down. But from our point of view, our firm has only been open for three years. We want that to be our message. We want that to be our brand. So when it comes to messaging, how do you think the messaging is really changing over the last couple of years in order to get the message out to people who are going through divorce, that mediation really can be your first?
[00:20:26] Speaker C: And you you brought up a lot of really good points, Chelsea, just now, I just want to go back to one thing you said. The judge who I used to work for, he sat on the bench and he kept saying, you don't want this stranger in black robes deciding your you know, I'm the co chair of the American Bar Association mediation committee. And the reason that I took that position is know, I feel that we mediators all have a lot of work ahead of us to establish the credibility within the legal field, because mediators are not as respected, unfortunately, by our legal peers. Often they sort of look down on mediation, and that's just the truth. And I'll say that when I worked for the judge and I was reviewing hundreds of divorces and also in private practice when I was reviewing many, many divorces, a lot of times, mediation agreements are missing important terms.
They can tend to be filled with precatory or wishful thinking kind of language.
They can have a lot of agreements to agree. Agreements to agree are not enforceable.
[00:21:54] Speaker D: Right.
[00:21:55] Speaker C: So we really want to make sure that when we go to a mediator, that the agreement is really detailed. It's really careful. Like, if you work with me as your mediator and you don't live in my state, especially, I leave you with a very detailed memorandum of understanding that you then bring to your counsel, who may be a litigation counsel, who's been looped into this entire process so that they don't upend the agreement at the 11th hour.
[00:22:25] Speaker D: Right.
[00:22:26] Speaker C: Like, the way I work is always, when possible, looping in that attorney and keeping that attorney as part of the conversation, and then you get an agreement that is really airtight.
[00:22:44] Speaker D: Right.
[00:22:47] Speaker C: And then I think that the more that mediators take the time either to write really careful agreements or to seek to find other people to write those agreements, I think the more respect they're going to have and the more people.
[00:23:00] Speaker D: Are going to use them, because with.
[00:23:02] Speaker C: Sloppy agreements, it's just like there's no credibility.
[00:23:07] Speaker B: That's kind of my selling point anyway for my clients, is I'm an active litigator right now. Now, it's not necessarily what I want to do forever. I don't picture myself, but it's helping me learn everything I feel like I need to learn right now to make myself a stronger mediator in the future.
[00:23:21] Speaker C: Yeah, I think that that's absolutely right.
And I think, as I was saying in the beginning, there's different kinds of mediators and there's different kinds of lawyers. I happen to feel like mediation happens under the umbrella of the law, in the shadow of the law.
Like you, I like people to have lawyers. Now, let's say someone comes to me and they're in my local area and I know the law here really well. I still like them to have lawyers because a lot of the laws are so fact based and they can be looked at different ways. And so I have to be careful when I'm the mediator not to interpret the law in the way that I think is fair based on my opinion. So it's like a really fine line. And so even though it's a little bit more work and it's a little bit more money when there are the resources, I prefer to have the lawyers involved right from the beginning. Now, sometimes you get cases that people really don't want lawyers, and in those cases, it is good, in my opinion, just like yours, to kind of know what the law is. And that is a really good selling point for a whole set of people.
[00:24:44] Speaker B: Yeah, and I definitely agree, having trained with a couple of different mediators, seeing that there's all sorts of different approaches and there's really no one right way, there's some that do kind of what you were saying, where the parties really are the only ones coming up with any of the options. And I've tried that approach where I'm kind of taking a step back and asking questions and letting them come up with it, and it's all of a sudden, now or later, they're really not getting anywhere. And I know in the back of my head there's five or six options that I don't have to necessarily push out there as the best options, but could help add to them.
[00:25:18] Speaker C: Right, exactly.
[00:25:19] Speaker B: Because of my experience. And so even after doing the most recent training I just completed, I really wanted to challenge myself and try different things. And then you're realizing that you still have to be yourself and find what works for each case and works for you as a mediator. So I think what you said before is, I always encourage people, even when they call me, call couple, call a couple mediators. I'm not for everybody.
My approach might not be what you want and the other mediator might be a little bit more hands off and you want that guidance.
And so I think that especially as mediation tends to grow, that's the number one thing that I'm kind of seeing is the different styles and what works for each client. And I think as we continue to see mediators pop up or attorneys transition, we're going to have all sorts of different styles, and it's going to make for better experiences for the different clients that are going through these divorces because they're different families.
[00:26:17] Speaker C: Even for effective problem solving. Some people, if they're vetting you, they might say, okay, well, how do you organize what you're going to talk about in each session?
[00:26:29] Speaker D: Right?
[00:26:29] Speaker C: Because some mediators say, okay, session one is on custody, session two is on property.
I personally look at it as a really organic experience. You're a family. And so on our first session, we sort of go through everything. On our second session, the first thing I'm going to say is, what's going on right now?
[00:26:50] Speaker D: Right.
[00:26:50] Speaker C: Because people try to get through their week when they're living in hell, right?
[00:26:55] Speaker B: Totally.
And I'm finding that the more mediation cases I complete and the more successful mediations that come to a close, when it comes to mediation, it's really about what do these clients need? What do they need to hear, what do they need to hear from the other person?
One of the things that you said earlier that I always find to be a recurring theme with some of these other mediators or mediation professionals that I've been talking to is making sure that other person feels heard. And it doesn't matter that you're validating or agreeing with them.
[00:27:38] Speaker D: Right.
[00:27:38] Speaker B: It's that this is what I'm hearing.
Is that correct or am I missing something?
[00:27:45] Speaker C: And you might have to practice saying that. And if you're listening to this and you're like, why are you talking about mediation so much? A lot of these skills, you can use it in your own life. Like actively listening. We all hear about active listening, but just saying, wait, did I get that right? Just literally restating what the person just said. Not in a questioning way. So you're saying this because that can feel confrontational, right? Oh, yeah.
[00:28:10] Speaker B: That's how people usually do it. Right.
So what did you just say? And it's more about if you can clarify, then you can understand where they're coming from, whether or not you agree. I think some people think in mediation, you have to agree on everything. And it's really not about that. The agreement is like the last thing we're actually going for. The discussion is what you're going for. And that's where you start realizing that the parties sometimes are closer to a resolution on their own than they even realize.
[00:28:40] Speaker D: That's right.
[00:28:41] Speaker C: And I love the expression, we're only as sick as our secrets.
[00:28:46] Speaker D: Right?
[00:28:47] Speaker C: I think that applies. Think about that. That applies to every part of your life. Like with everybody and everything. And in mediation, it's true.
Let's say you're thinking you're going to relocate, okay? So you might decide you're not going to bring that up now for a strategic reason. But most of the time it's best to just address these things so there's mechanisms so that they work out more smoothly later on.
[00:29:12] Speaker D: Right?
[00:29:13] Speaker B: Yeah. And I always talk about what tools, right? What tools can I give my mediation clients or even my litigation clients that are going through a divorce? What tools do I feel like I can provide that are separate from the legal guidance? Because I think that so much of the time they're saying, oh, this is my lawyer. They're going to tell me what the law is and they're going to tell me what to fight for.
And from my perspective, I always say, well, what can I provide you to get you through this process? I can tell you what the law says, and I can give you some options for how we can accomplish certain goals. But really, what do you need to get to the end?
[00:29:54] Speaker D: Right?
[00:29:55] Speaker B: What do we need to get you through?
And everybody has a different approach.
[00:30:00] Speaker C: One thing you had asked me before about tools that I give people is I have forever. I've been talking about breathing and the secretary who used to work with me and the judge way back, she just wrote something on my Facebook like, are you showing your kids how to do sun salutations? Which is like funny because they're teenagers now and they're not going to do that with me. But just telling people to or inviting them to start integrating, like, a breathing practice into their life. Not in like a weird, annoying preachy, like, you have to do this, but just like when you're feeling really wound up, you just close your eyes, take a couple of deep breaths, in and out through your nose a couple of times a day. Then when you're feeling agitated, just remind yourself, oh, I'll do the breathing right now because the breathing really slows you down and it can be really magical. I'm like the most impatient person, and just breathing and having a couple of positive affirmations is really good. I'm really patient with people when they're getting divorced. That's always like I think I get really sucked into the story and I get into problem solving mode really quickly. That's just like, the way my brain works. But when it comes to my own life, it could be a whole different thing.
[00:31:19] Speaker D: Right.
[00:31:19] Speaker C: And so how do I practice what I preach?
[00:31:22] Speaker D: Right?
[00:31:22] Speaker C: I have to slow down because I'm just like I'd have to be like, okay, I'm going to take that. Step back. I'm going to be responsive rather than reactive. When I act reactive, I'm going to acknowledge that I did that and own it and keep going forward and just try to always be your best self. And that's really the best way through your divorce, too, is to be your best self. If you get dragged into the mud, even though you're trying to be your best self, it's going to feel a lot less bad when you've been kind and strong. I'm not suggesting that anybody should allow themselves to be taken advantage of. Absolutely not.
[00:32:02] Speaker D: Right.
[00:32:04] Speaker C: When I was working as an advocate, I would push things to the absolute limit, but I was really clear about encouraging my clients to always pick their battles rather than because lawyers make money by the rabbit holes, right? Like, something comes up and you're like, oh, let's file, let's write a letter. Everything's billed by the hour, right? So if you have a lawyer who is not crazy busy and they have staff, they'll have the staff, okay, write a letter to their lawyer, write this, write this. And suddenly your bill is $12,000 when it could have been three.
[00:32:43] Speaker D: Yeah.
[00:32:43] Speaker B: And it happens quicker than people think, right? Especially at the outset when they're not quite used to what the attorneys fees look like and how quickly it can add up. But one thing I try to remind my clients is, let's brainstorm our options, right?
What different approaches can we take? Do we need to respond to this? Or is it something that can be just left behind? Is whatever we're dealing with right now more rhetorical than anything? Because half the time in divorce, there's a lot of attacks, but there's nothing that really needs to be responded to. Or is this serious enough where we need to address it and possibly get involved in court? Is there some kind of serious emergency issue?
And I think that I try not to hone in on attorney fees too much when I'm going through a case with a client where I'm constantly talking about how much they're spending or anything like that. But I do point out the big picture and saying, look, this course of action is going to cost a lot, and we're going to go in front of a judge who I don't think is actually going to accomplish your goal. So while I'm prepared to do this for you if we need to, can we explore another option for your family? I think so many people, once they get stuck in that litigation cycle, it's so hard for them to get out. And more and more, I think clients are surprised when even in the middle of a mediation, I'm pushing or a middle of a litigation, I'm pushing to get them out and say, can we convince the other attorney, essentially to convince their client to get you to a mediation with somebody and take the lawyers out of it for a little bit? And sometimes I find that that's successful. Sometimes the battle is really getting these litigation attorneys to want to step back from cases. Have you seen that kind of evolve, at least in your experience, not only as an advocate, but as a mediator? And can you give us some of your thoughts? Because that's where I struggle the most.
[00:34:39] Speaker C: Yeah, I mean, like, look, there's a world of people who are going to be litigators. That's what they want to do. You're not going to change them, I'm not going to change them. And there's a world of people who want to litigate, and that's okay, right?
[00:34:53] Speaker B: Yeah.
[00:34:53] Speaker C: Litigation has its place. It's not a problem.
[00:34:56] Speaker D: But.
[00:35:01] Speaker C: If you're a new mediator or if you're considering to become a mediator, my advice is to go ahead and hang that mediation shingle and become the best mediator that you can be. Like, learn what the local laws are if you are a lawyer, mediator. If you're not a lawyer mediator, at least know what all the issues are. Make sure the parties go to lawyers and just let your mediation light shine because people are going to find you. So I don't feel like it's changing for everybody. No, I think there's a lot of people who are divorced professionals who enjoy the fight, who enjoy stirring the pot, who like to create drama, or if they don't like it, they just do it. It's like part of what they do. They make a lot of money. They almost think it's funny. They view it like, my clients are causing their own problems. They can't get out of their own way. I mean, you know what the divorce lawyers say. You've been a divorce lawyer for long enough, and if you are someone going through a divorce, I'm just going to say invite you to steer clear. Again, if you have to go that way, so be it. But most of the time, it doesn't have to be that way. And just have the confidence to know that you can still have a really good agreement. Like, the way I work with my clients is first I have them come in. We do a two hour meeting. At the end of that first meeting, they have so many questions. Then I send them to their lawyer rather than first going to the lawyer and then going to the mediator. And then they come back, and they're coming back with a place where they have knowledge, where they're armed with information. So I find that really useful.
[00:36:40] Speaker B: Yeah, I think that's great. And especially because I think we talked about it briefly about the different types of mediators that are out there, the different styles. Even when somebody calls me for either litigation or divorce coaching, I do the same thing. I don't try to sell them. I think sometimes that can be an attorney mindset. Like, let's get this client retained and get them going. After this initial meeting, I actually tell them, please go call a couple of names if you need some more names of some people of who you'd like to speak with that are different than me, similar to me, because I am not for everybody in the same way I'm not for everybody in mediation. As a litigator, I am very expectation based. I do want to try to find a way to use court only when absolutely necessary, even if I'm in that full representation position. And I think some clients get surprised by that when they call, and they're like that. They're like, you're trying to push me out?
[00:37:36] Speaker C: And I said, no, I just want.
[00:37:37] Speaker B: To make sure you have all options available. Call us when you're ready. I'm here. We're able to take on your case.
But I always encourage shopping around. Or they'll tell me like, oh, I have a couple more meetings. And I go, oh, great, I love that because I think they're going to make a better choice for them.
And I also think the other thing that people don't realize is attorneys get to make the choice too, right? There's all sorts of clients out there who get this mindset that they want to attack or blame or fight. And I'm not necessarily the attorney for those people, and I'm going to get them to somebody that I think is a better fit, because at the end of the day, I don't want just every client. I want the right clients for me, and I want that client to feel like they are with their right lawyer here. And so having those conversations, I think, is really good for the divorce kind of industry in general, because I think it's making us all better. I feel like I'm getting better when I get referrals from other attorneys and they're like, this case wasn't for me, but it's definitely for you. And I go, Great. And then you realize that we're starting to support one another and see how different we are. Now, that's not the case for everybody, but I have some great colleagues in the area that I feel like we know what value we can each bring to cases.
[00:38:48] Speaker D: Yeah.
[00:38:49] Speaker C: I think it's a day by day process. I think the positive divorce movement is for all of us. It's for the lawyers, it's for the mediators, it's for the certified divorce financial analysts, it's for the people getting divorced. And most importantly, it's for the children.
[00:39:03] Speaker B: Yeah. Which I think is an easy thing for people to forget even when they're fighting over money. If the kids are still involved and the divorce is still going on, there's still a consideration.
[00:39:13] Speaker C: And I'm just going to say that even if sometimes people will come to me and they're just thinking so much about the children that they're not thinking about themselves enough. So just to turn that around, your kids are going to be happy when you're happy, most of the time it trickles both ways. Like, you have to put your kids first and you also have to put not if you're happy at the detriment of their wellness.
[00:39:37] Speaker D: Right.
[00:39:37] Speaker C: But if you're making wholehearted decisions, you decide to keep the house. Well, you're decided to keep the house because you're deciding, not because you're being stuck with it.
[00:39:47] Speaker D: Right.
[00:39:47] Speaker C: Like, you always have options. So just remember, I do a lot of divorce coaching, which is not legal, just talking about making the best choices that support your wellness as you move through beyond your divorce.
[00:40:02] Speaker B: Yeah, some of my divorce coaching and consulting based cases are my favorite because they're doing the divorce themselves. Either they're in mediation and I'm kind of in the background, or they're doing the divorce themselves and working together.
But they feel that they have the confidence, they have some of the legal advocacy and knowledge, but they also have the perspective of what other options I have. And so those are some of my favorite cases as well.
[00:40:25] Speaker C: That's great. I love hearing about your work, Chelsea.
You are a very dynamic person.
[00:40:34] Speaker B: Well, thank you so much. I feel so inspired every time we talk. We have so much fun.
The thing I say the most about you as your mediation style, which is what I feel so much attracted to, is you're so relatable. Right. You don't have this hat on where people feel intimidated because you're in this role. You're there as part of this conversation, and every time I talk to you, I get that, right? You're here just to share and talk and build everybody else up. And it's very apparent, and I can tell through your mediation style that your clients just have to benefit from having a very relatable person on the other side guiding them through their divorce. So I think that's a huge value.
[00:41:18] Speaker C: Well, thank you so much. I know it's funny. Sometimes I feel like I should be more authoritative, but it's not.
You are who you are.
[00:41:28] Speaker D: Right.
[00:41:29] Speaker C: And so I feel really passionate about the idea of if you're meant to be apart, you can be better apart. That's why better apart is called better apart. Doesn't mean you have to have a war. You can still get along. And that's going to be the next book.
[00:41:45] Speaker B: So that goes to my final question. Gabrielle, you have anything coming up that you wanted to share? Anything that you wanted to promote for other people that are going on that you think is important?
[00:41:55] Speaker C: I would just say go check out the Better at part blog. Go to Gabriellehartley.com and see what's going on there. If you're going through a divorce. Every week I have different wellness divorce professionals. You can learn all about everything from nutrition to sobriety tests to different ways to get divorced, hear people's personal stories and get your own Thrive and Survive guide. If you just go to Gabriellehartley.com and sign up for the newsletter, it'll come to your inbox. Or you can just check out the blog by clicking the Better Apart blog. And I do have some exciting things coming out, but I am not at liberty to talk about them just yet. So if you check out the newsletter, everything will come into the inbox. But just know that the best way forward is with a giant step back and just do the best you can, because that's all any of us can ever do.
[00:42:53] Speaker B: Well, Gabriel, thank you so much for your time today. It was so much fun, and I look forward to chatting again.
[00:42:58] Speaker D: Likewise.
[00:42:59] Speaker C: Thank you so much. Bye.
