The Lessons of 7 Marriages

[00:00:23] Speaker A: Hey, friends. Happy New Year. We have a few more episodes in season one, and I'm so thankful to be back behind the mic for a bit. For this episode, you're going to need to set aside a little bit more time, but it will be worth it. Joanne Fawcett just ended marriage number seven. She has so many lessons to share. She is candid about the things that did not work out and speaks with such lightness. There are a few dark moments, funny moments, and overall fascinating stories. Joanne is now a speaker, an author, and overall pretty cool lady. So enjoy. Hi, Joanne. How are you doing today? [00:01:03] Speaker B: I'm well. How are you? It's a beautiful fall, not rainy morning, or it's afternoon now in Portland. So it's walk. I was able to get a walk in, so it's all good. [00:01:16] Speaker A: Oh, good. Yeah, we had a lot of rain the last two days, and then it opened up and is beautiful and sunny today. So it's a nice day to be recording, actually, because I feel like, you know, sunny weather. [00:01:29] Speaker B: Good, good, good. [00:01:30] Speaker A: So, Joanne, you have a very interesting story to tell, and my understanding is you just ended marriage number seven. Do I have that right? [00:01:40] Speaker B: You do. One died, so, yes, technically, I've been married seven times. Yes, one died. So we didn't ever get divorced. We would have, but we didn't. [00:01:52] Speaker A: As a divorce attorney and mediator, I see people going through some of the most difficult times in their life, and divorce can be very emotionally draining, financially draining. And my goal as part of their team in this divorce process is to always try to highlight what can we learn from this process? What did you learn about yourself? What did you learn about life? And I really think that a lot of the stories that you can share are going to resonate with a lot of those people. [00:02:24] Speaker B: Thank you. I'm trying not to cry, but go ahead. [00:02:28] Speaker A: Definitely not my intention, because I do. [00:02:30] Speaker B: Feel like, no, you're fine. [00:02:32] Speaker A: When people are so willing to share the stories, too, it just really opens that dialogue for people. And so I'm so thankful that you're sitting down with me today to share all your lessons. [00:02:45] Speaker B: Well, thank you. Where to start? I was going to say, when I was doing the notes, I was looking at it, and I was just talking to my sister. It's like she wants me to talk about the lessons I've learned. And it looks like I learned pretty much the same lesson almost every time, although I didn't learn it in time to use it for the next one. [00:03:08] Speaker A: Right. [00:03:08] Speaker B: So it's like a lot of the lessons are really the same thing, but yet with a different spin. But basically, maybe I'll do a caveat. I was a Mormon for over 30 years, and so five of the guys I married were Mormons. The overarching underlying theme is happy family life, strong family values. That's all great. You get married, you have babies, you live happily ever after. Everybody's supposed to be on the same page. So I thought, and I figured, well, if we're going to the same church, we must want the same things. We must have the same goals. We must have the same ideas on how to raise kids and handle our money and do all these married things. And that was just never the case. So we'll find out. As I talk about the different guys, it's like they had a face at church and a face at home, right? Which were rarely the same. It's like, oh, if the church leaders saw you today at home yelling at me like that or talking to me like that, it's like, oh, that would be scary. And again, my overarching lesson for everybody is like, take the time to get to know the person before you get in a long term relationship, because I never did that well enough. And even if maybe we courted for several months, it was never long enough. And we didn't talk about the really important stuff that I thought that now I know we should have talked about. And it's like, oh, I could have asked those questions, and now that I'm much older than I was when I first got married, and it's like, oh, I could be asking these kind of questions and my bucket list for what I want and almost demand in a partner, if there's ever going to be another partner, is way longer and way different than what I thought I wanted in the first place. [00:05:09] Speaker A: Yeah. And I think knowing that has to, I would think, actually, I'm going to say it a little differently. I would think knowing that can feel very empowering at this point in your life. [00:05:21] Speaker B: It's very empowering because I don't have to. On the one hand, it's very empowering. On the other hand, I'm just kind of dipping my toes back into the dating apps and going, this is terrifying. Like, oh, my gosh, nobody's liking me today. What's going on? [00:05:38] Speaker A: It's a whole new world with the app. [00:05:40] Speaker B: It's a whole new world. And it's really scary, especially for somebody my age, at least for me. But it is empowering because I do know who I am. I do know what I want, and I'm not afraid to say who I am now and what I want. And if you don't like it, I'd rather be alone. Thank you very much. I love that. So it took me a long time to get there, and I obviously didn't succeed in doing that with any of the seven people. I kind of just went along. It was like the same theme. It was like codependency and trying to please the man and blah, blah, blah. I would have kept you very busy. Gosh. Anyway. [00:06:24] Speaker A: Well, yeah, why don't we go ahead and jump into marriage number one? [00:06:30] Speaker B: Okay. I was 20 when we got married, just barely 20. And we were getting a divorce the following year. So most of these marriages didn't last longer than a year. There were a couple that obviously did. But like I said, I was a Mormon, definitely at that time, because I joined the church when I was twelve. I was going to Brigham Young University. I went there for two years. There was a dance right before Christmas break, and this guy who didn't go to school there, but he was there because his friend's band was playing at the dance. He asked me to dance. And we started talking and liking each other, and we started dating and stuff. And then I went home for Christmas and came back and we kept dating. And even though he went to a school that was a few hours away, he went to school in northern Utah. But his family lived kind of close to where a BYU is. Anyway, we got engaged. I thought, oh, cool, the fairy tale wedding or the big Mormon church wedding. And I made this beautiful gown and everything is cool, and it's all wonderful. And at our reception, and this should have been my very first red flag. At our reception, we're cutting the cake and the top tier falls over. It's like, oh, no. And they made us a new one, but we weren't even together by the time you should have eaten that for your first anniversary. And then I knew he had allergies, like to dust and different things, but he had an allergy attack. He wanted to go camping on our honeymoon because that's all we could afford. So we took his parents camper and of course he got a major allergy attack, so we had to leave early. It's like, okay, this is going really well. He was a photography major and he was photographing models many times a week, and he would come home and tell me how I just didn't stack up to those models and I wasn't thin enough, and I needed to exercise more and I needed to lose weight. It's like, do I see you exercising? I'm the one working and coming home and cooking dinner and cleaning the house and you're just going to school. And we started fighting and he would think it would be funny to pinch the inside of my arms and it hurt and he'd laugh and I was like, yeah, that doesn't feel good for, it doesn't feel good to pinch me, and it doesn't feel good that you're laughing at me. And anyway, things just kind of escalated and I'd call my sister for advice. It's like, well, how do I make him like me more? None of that stuff worked. And finally we just decided to split up. And I moved back to Connecticut where my parents lived. And eventually, because he told me before I left, it's like, well, I don't really love you or didn't really love you. My family wanted me to get married because that's what you do when you're a young Mormon man. And it was time for me to get married. And I was like, and you were a home economics major, so obviously a good choice. And it's like, yeah, that's really making me feel good. Thanks. And I moved back to Connecticut and started working and going back to school. Know, he contacted me. Know, well, my family thinks we should give it another try. It's like, what? Do you want to come out to Connecticut and talk to me about it? No, you have to come to Utah and talk to me. Well, then forget know if you're not going to come get me and pursue, you know, it's like, no, that's just not working. And so we got a divorce. I just wasn't what he wanted. And so the first lesson is, oh, you're not enough. And that was a hard, well, it was a realization that was one of the underlying running through every marriage is like, I didn't seem to be enough for any of them except one or two. So that was awful. Both of us were much happier, I'm sure, divorcing and finding somebody else. Like I said, I hope he's happy. I hope they stayed together and they've got a million kids. [00:10:27] Speaker A: So you would say that the main lesson from this first marriage and divorce was starting to at least acknowledge that you could stand up for yourself. [00:10:38] Speaker B: I had to start learning to stand up for myself, so I did it when I said, no, I'm not running back to Utah to talk this over. [00:10:49] Speaker A: Yeah, it's a good boundary to set in that there was, it seemed like you said that there were several things you thought you should have talked about before you got married, but from this particular marriage, is there one thing that you remember wishing you had spoken to him about before you got married? [00:11:10] Speaker B: I don't know at this point, because I was so naive, but I probably should have said, do you want kids? Right away. I assumed so much. It's like, how serious are you about the church? Are you just going to church to please your parents? Or do you really want to dive in and make sure this is our lifestyle, because when you're a Mormon, if you're going to be active, it's a total commitment and total lifestyle. So everything revolves around church stuff? Pretty much. So I probably should have been really clear on that and how we were going to deal with our money. Besides, you go to work, you drops out of school, you go to work. Because I have to finish my degree, which he never did or never did right away. I don't know. It's not like I keep in touch. Right. But those immediate things, it's like, how are we going to handle the spiritual side, the money side, the kids? That would have been a big thing. It's like if we had that discussion, that would have been an eye opener. [00:12:20] Speaker A: Well, and I think it sounds like for that particular relationship, that scenario worked out in the sense that it did. There wasn't a child that had to be in the middle of the dynamic when you were able to learn that this wasn't a good fit. And sometimes that can be the blessing in the situation, even if that wasn't necessarily what both of you wanted at the time. [00:12:45] Speaker B: Right. And it's funny because I always thought I wanted a lot of kids. The universe must have seen what was going to happen because I have one and that's fine and it's not funny, but we kind of joke about it now. [00:13:01] Speaker A: I totally agree. I think things just work themselves out how they're supposed to work themselves out, even if that means things that we thought we really wanted or maybe things that we do or still really wanted don't work out for whatever reason. Your life can still be so full with the way that things just end up unfolding and focusing on those things, I think, is really important. [00:13:23] Speaker B: It is. And life is full now, so it's good. [00:13:27] Speaker A: So that takes us to marriage number two. How old were you and what were the circumstances of your life at the time? [00:13:36] Speaker B: I was about 22, so I didn't let a lot of grass grow between marriages. I had moved back to California by then because I was living in Connecticut. I was going to school, and for whatever reason, I don't know if I decided I needed a change know life, living with know near my best friend and living in know. I was allowed to live at her parents house, and so I could see her a lot. But it's like, I didn't think. It's like, okay, I'm going there. And I didn't have a lot of job skills. The only job experience I'd had was babysitting, house cleaning, and working at a department store, pretty much. And I didn't want to be a professional cleaner, that's for sure. Ask any of my husband's. Not my favorite task. I was looking around for jobs and couldn't find any and decided to go to adult education, which is kind of like an offshoot of community college, but it's a whole separate program. And I took their business courses and decided that I really liked the bookkeeping. And so I became a bookkeeper and got a job. And then I was involved with the church and the singles activities and stuff like that. So I was having fun meeting a couple of different guys and stuff. And then I hosted an activity at my house or the people's house where I lived, and some friends I knew at church, they brought the woman's brother, who was not a member, and he came, and I don't even know what the topic was. There's usually, like somebody speaking or whatever. Anyway, and then he stayed, and we kind of hit it off, and we started talking and stuff, and then we started dating. And like a month later, we were married, thank goodness, because I was pregnant. But he had gotten divorced from his first wife. He had a little girl, and he couldn't afford child support, so he wasn't allowed to see her. And I think she lived on the east coast, and we were on the west coast, so he was really missing her. And he wanted to get married so soon because it would be on her birthday. Otherwise we wouldn't have needed to rush, but I would have found out I was pregnant eventually, and, like, oh, we pretty hurt. We probably should get married. So he was a really nice guy, a lot of fun. We had similar interests and stuff, but he did like to smoke pot. And here I am, this good Mormon girl, except for sleeping with him when I shouldn't be as a good Mormon girl. But anyway, he's, like one of the only husbands my family actually liked. He liked sailing. He got along with my parents, and he was musically inclined, and he could do stuff with his hands. What I didn't know was that he had a substance abuse problem because of an injury in the navy, so he got addicted to Valium. And what I didn't know was that he drank a little too much. A lot too much. And I didn't know he had. I guess mental health covers many things, so he had bouts of depression and things. So I didn't know this because we weren't together very long and his family didn't tell me. And later it's like, well, we just thought if he married a nice Mormon girl, his life would straighten out. No, that's not how it works. You don't marry somebody to resolve your problems. You deal with your problems, and then great. If the other person comes along, great. But that's not a good reason. That's like, I'm getting married because my family thinks it's time. But I didn't know this, and we got married. We have a beautiful daughter. She's in her forty s now. But when I was seven months pregnant, it was becoming more apparent that he was. Well, I don't know if I realized how serious he was about suicide, but he had threatened it a couple of times when I was with him. But it also became apparent that he was drinking too much and he'd miss work because he was drinking too much or too. And he was smoking a lot of pot back in the days when it was illegal. And I remember he had me drive with him one time to go get the pot. And I'm just terrified because I'm pregnant and we're going to do something illegal, and it's like, that is so not me. It's like, I'm driving with you to buy pot, and this is terrible. What if we get caught? But I went because I was a codependent, definitely by then, and he would talk me into buying him alcohol on the way home from work. And it's like, I don't go into liquor stores. That's just not who I am. But I would because he needed it and he wanted it and would make me feel guilty if I didn't. And eventually he made me feel guilty for going to church, so maybe I went less. And then eventually, even though he promised my pastor that I would be allowed to go to church and keep up my activities and stuff and was it okay if I paid 10% of my earnings to tithing and. Oh, yeah, that's all fine. Well, eventually he made me feel guilty about paying that tithing, and so I stopped. And then at seven months, he kicked me out because his mental health was deteriorating and my daughter was born and I think he had unhooked his unattached. Whatever. You take the phone apart back then it was a landline and a ringer. The dial thing, it's like somebody had to go to the apartment to tell him I'd had the baby because I was trying to call him and he'd taken the phone apart and he came to the house and saw her once. And then when I was taking to the doctor one day, I stopped by his apartment and we had a little visit. And he adored her. But at five weeks old, he committed suicide. Yeah. So she grew up without her dad and thankfully we stayed really close with his family, so she had really a good, great relationship with her grandparents and her aunts and stuff, but she grew up without her dad and then I picked really bad stepfathers. So we have had a lot of healing to do, which we have done, and there's probably more. Who knows? But we've worked through a lot of those kinks. But it wasn't until many years had gone by before we actually had a chance to work on it. But we have, and I'm grateful for that. So the best part of that marriage is I have a fabulous daughter and we're really close. And I would say, I don't know who of your listeners are into talking with people that have passed and stuff, but I do that. And so I have had a chat with him, but it was not till like this last year, and it was your daughter's, okay. And he apologized and he was really sorry and he was so proud of her. So that was good to know that he's in a better place for him. But we would not have lasted. We would have divorced because we're going down a bad road. And I knew he was suicidal and he wasn't getting the help that he needed because he didn't think he needed it. [00:20:46] Speaker A: So what is the primary lesson from. [00:20:48] Speaker B: Marriage number two again, like I said, it's kind of the same lesson, but I should have taken the time to get to know him a lot better and I probably shouldn't have jumped into bed with him. But when you're in your twenty s and the hormones are raging, sometimes you just can't help it. But that kind of clouds your judgment, clouds your judgment at any day, any age. But, yeah, I should have not fallen into the trap of, oh, let's get married on my daughter's birthday. It's like, sure, a year from now, right? It's all about, I should have taken the time to really get to know him, because if he'd been a great guy and not an addict, it probably wouldn't have mattered to me if he wasn't a member of the church. But who knows, because I was still very strongly interested in being a really active member of the church. And again, I can't go sailing with you on Sunday if I need to be in church. So it's hard to be married to somebody who's not a member because your life is so consumed with family and church service. [00:21:58] Speaker A: Sure. So that takes us to marriage number three. [00:22:01] Speaker B: Okay, why don't you tell us how. [00:22:03] Speaker A: Old you are and what were the circumstances at the time? [00:22:07] Speaker B: I think we probably got married. This was kind of tricky trying to figure this out, but I think we got married by the time I was like 24. And we were together. Well, we were together on paper for five years. We only lived together for about three and a half till I left. It just took a long time to get the divorce. By then, my daughter wasn't even. She was over a year old, so she was a toddler, maybe. When we got married, she was like 14 months old. And I met this guy at church. Again, most of these people I met at church or through some church thing, and he had an important job in our. We had congregations just for single adults. So that was kind of nice because people are in the same circumstances and you could meet people. Okay. But what I didn't know was that he was telling other guy and I was dating. It's like. And I brought my baby with me to church and that was all cool, and the guys like that, but all of a Sudden nobody was asking me out. And later I found out that he'd been telling them, oh, she's mine, don't date her. Excuse me? It's like you don't get to decide. But I didn't know he was telling people that. So we started dating and he was really interested. He'd never been married before and he had a job. I wasn't working. Fortunately, I didn't because of. I had widows benefits from the guy dying. So I didn't have to work till she went back to school. And then I went back to work till she got into kindergarten. Then I finally went back to work anyway, so he was working. We were both active members of the church. I didn't realize how much of an inferiority complex he had because he used his charm to hide that. And then, know, he got immersed in our. Know he really liked being a dad, but he was like super strict. I think he grew up with really strict people who'd been born in the south and whatever, but really strict and thought it was okay to spank my daughter because she has heavy cloth diapers on and she can't feel it, so she's crying. She can feel it, and she can tell your tone. And again, hormones are raging. You're not supposed to have sex before you get married. You can't live together if you're a Mormon before you get married. All this stuff. So we eloked to Las Vegas, and on the way. And again, this should have been the sign on the way to drop her off at my mom's, there was a truck in front of us at a piece of lumber, and it flew out of the back of the pickup truck and into the windshield. So even though we weren't badly, like, the windshield flew through the window and gave her a cut on the side of her head, so we had to stop and go to the emergency room. And that was traumatic, hearing your kids scream while she's tied down on a board and you can't go in there with her. But what did we do? I went and still dropped her off at my mom's and got married. Don't judge me too harshly, people. And then he took his role very seriously and was very strict with her. It was like he decided, okay, well, now she's old enough in it. She still wasn't two yet. Like, she needs to be out of a crib, into a bed. It's like, excuse me, she needs to stop having a bottle. Because he's the man of the house and he's the head of the household, and all of a sudden, he's making all these rules for my kid. Like, okay, well, you're the one that wanted the happy family, blah, blah, blah. It turned bad to worse, and we were able to buy, like, a mobile home. He had anger issues. So, you know, again, if you were going against him or if you irritated him, he just blew up. And I remember one day he came home from work, and he was a funeral director at the time, so I don't know if his shifts were longer or whatever. And then sometimes maybe when he wasn't a funeral director, he was just the person who's, like, the on call person. So, anyway, wasn't a great job. But he came home, we had an argument, and he proceeded to break all the windows in our mobile home. And I was just mortified. I go, this isn't good. And he hadn't really hit us yet. And I went to the neighbors to hide or get out of there. I talked to our minister. Well, did he hurt you? I go, no, but he broke all the windows in the house. And now how do I pay for this? And, well, do you think he's going to hit you? I go, I don't know. And I think by then we've been talking about moving to Ohio because that's where his sister and her family lived. And I just. I kept going along with this stuff because I wanted to support him as the head of the household. And my mom was just going, you need to step up and let him know this isn't okay. And one time he didn't like, well, he was so possessive that if I had driven over to my mom's or I was like, I don't know. I'm not a big shopper, but if the daughter and I were somewhere and if I hadn't told him, this is where we're going. Because back in the 70s, there were no cell phones. And he would call around to my parents house, my sister's house, this person in the church trying to find where I was because he had to know where I was at every moment. And we were really poor, so it's not like I went anywhere except to my parents or to do church work. And he would just be livid if he didn't know where we. Like, dude, I'm not cheating on know, but I don't know what he thought if he was that insecure. But he never hit us till we moved to Ohio. And I remember even before we moved to Ohio, he was mad about something. I think my mom planned my grandma's birthday party, and it turned out to be a day he couldn't go. Maybe he had to work or something. And he was just livid because they must have done that on purpose. And I think he made me cut my ties with my family because they made him mad. It's like, are you kidding? He comes home from work and I said, we're leaving. You're driving us to the airport. There's no discussion on, you know, he did. And that was that. Except then know came back to California. I went home to, you know, then he decided he couldn't stay in Ohio and he wanted to have us in. He wasn't going to have anything of me, but he was insisting to have this relationship with my daughter, and she really didn't want to have anything to do with him. But it took another couple years to get a divorce because he was fighting and I had let him adopt her. Silly me. But church thing going to be this forever family, she's got to be adopted, blah, blah, blah. But the divorce took a while because we were fighting over custody and visitation. It's like, well, there's no way we're having joint custody. Thankfully, he moved to southern California. I was in northern California. This is my kid. We're not having joint custody. And if you want visitation, you've got to pay some child support. So this, again, is still back in the late 70s, early eighty s, a hundred dollars a month seems like a pittance nowadays, and I can't afford that. I go, well, you adopted her. You want to visit her, you got to pay something. So he agreed to that. But again, it took a couple of years to negotiate all that. And it was so stupid because we'd have these phone calls and argue. And it was just, you know, he came to see her once and she went to California. I mean, Southern California wants to see him, but she didn't want to see him. And I didn't make, you know, usually the money only got collected as he got a tax refund or whatever. And eventually, by the time she was 18, I got the last bit of it. But it was hard fought. And he married somebody else with kids and then had one of his own, so he lost interest in her and. Yeah, pretty sad. [00:30:39] Speaker A: Well, I appreciate you sharing that because such an interesting process to hear you speak about it, because you set a boundary in marriage number one. You set a boundary in marriage number two, and you set a boundary in marriage number three. Just because somebody or even yourself now can say, oh, it should have been sooner, doesn't mean it didn't get there. And I think that's an important positive to acknowledge. You decided to protect yourself, decided to protect your child and take that stand. And that's the important part when people are in relationships with abuser, is to say, you know what? I did set a boundary and I got out. And so that's something everybody can be proud of in those moments whenever it happens. And that's what we need to remember. It's not all the times you didn't call the police or all the times you should have, could have, would have. It's that you did and you got out and started a new chapter for you and your daughter. And that's amazing. [00:31:42] Speaker B: Thank you. Because it's like everybody at church thought he was so wonderful. [00:31:48] Speaker A: They always are. They're always charming. [00:31:50] Speaker B: They put on this, they're always charming and they're doing their church work and they look so exospiritual. It's not always the case. [00:31:58] Speaker A: Yeah. [00:31:59] Speaker B: And I wasn't even telling my family that that was what was going on. And it's like, even to the point where he was so insecure that when my dad died, he wouldn't let me. Now, my parents would have given me the money to go home for the funeral, but he wouldn't let me go because he was afraid I wouldn't come back. I would not have sure. I would have felt like, well, okay, I can leave. All because I'm sure that I would not have gone back. Somebody could have easily convinced me to stay and just say, I don't need my stuff, donate all my stuff, I can buy new stuff. So he was insecure, probably for a reason, and that was still maybe a couple of years, even before I actually left, or at least a good year and a half or whatever. But it was a rough road. [00:33:03] Speaker A: So that takes us to marriage number four. [00:33:06] Speaker B: Okay. By then I was 30. Yeah, I was 30 and my daughter was seven by then. And we had moved from southern California to northern California. When I left number three, my whole family was moving because my dad had died. So my mom had bought this big piece of property up in northern California, so we all moved there. And my brother already lived in the area, so the rest of us just moved on to this giant complex. And my sister still owns it today, so it's still in the family, which is nice. I went to a church dance and I met this guy who was fun and a good dancer and had a good sense of humor. And we got along and we started dating. And then he proposed. So of course I said yes, even though my mother said no. And I had asked my daughter, okay, mom. Yeah, if it makes you happy. Even though she didn't like him at all. It's like, could you have pleased? Well, what was I going to do, mom, at seven, change your mind? Come on. And again, he'd never been married. He wasn't working when we met, but he was going. I don't know if he'd had an injury or what. I can't remember the circumstances, but he was going to like, vocational school, so he was learning some skills or whatever, but he got a job kind of shortly after we got married. But we got married and we dated for several months. I can't remember when we started dating, but we dated for several months. But again, not asking the right questions, not really saying, okay, when we get married, how are we going to handle this? Or this? Or this? Or this? He seemed to get along with my daughter for the most part, my family tolerated him. They weren't mean to him or anything. But again, I don't always take everybody's advice, apparently. So we got married. And again, it was like, okay, I'm the head of the household, this is how it goes. And it's so funny because he got it. And I was a bookkeeper, I had a good job. I was bringing home the money and working, and fortunately I didn't have to pay for daycare because my daughter could come right home from school. And we're living on this compound with grandma, great grandma, aunts, uncles, cousins. It was great. I remember he got a job working for somebody we knew at church who delivered milk and milk products around town. And so that was great. But it's physical labor. Okay, sure, you're hard, it's hard, you're tired, blah, blah, blah. And I don't even know why I got married because obviously we didn't have a happy family and he wasn't. Again, the hormones are raging before you get married. But then he hardly seems interested in physical intimacy after you get married. It's like, well, this sucks. And we're young, we're cute, why aren't we having sex all the time? It's crazy. He just didn't seem that interested. And he wasn't totally interested in this whole family package. He didn't want kids. And of course I wanted more kids. He didn't want kids. So that became an argument. And I remember one day, my daughter, again, precocious, she's seven, maybe eight by now. I don't even remember. And she kicked him. He irritated her, so she kicked him. She's seven, she's not going to hurt him very much. He wore pointy, probably steel toe, but pointy cowboy boots all the time. And he kicked her back and she goes, mom, I still have the dent in my shin from that. Like, are you kidding me? You can still see the indentation in her shin. And she's in her forty s and it's like, okay, well, this isn't going well. And I journaled. I journaled a lot back then. Just because that's something you learn to do in the church, you journal your life, journal your spiritual experiences, all this cool stuff. Okay, well, so and so and so. And I had another fight about this, had another fight about this and it's just like by then, okay, this is husband number four. I'm not going to wait ten more. We're not even going to give it five years if it's not working. It's just not working. And I just told him. And at the time, I think his dad was ill and I could tell that he was starting to look for apartments other places. So we just split up. And it wasn't a hard divorce. There was no property. We didn't own anything, so there wasn't any property to split up. Nobody was going to pay each other child support or alimony. There was just none of that. We just cut ties and went our separate ways. But I do remember, you'll like this. I do remember running into, like, I went to lunch with my family one day, and he's over in the corner of this chinese restaurant, kind of behind the partition with some new girlfriend. It's like she looks quite a bit older. And again, as far as not listening, here's another lesson to learn. If you've got church people or family telling you it's probably not a good idea to marry that person, I've got a bad vibe about him. Listen, because I didn't. And look where it got me. Even my mom said, yeah, no. And my minister said, yeah, I've heard some things about him, about anger issues and stuff. And you probably should think twice. It's like, oh, I think we're okay. We get along really well. And years later, just in the last five years, when I'm now fast forward with husband number seven, but this is just a little caveat. There was this journalist really wreaking havoc about husband number seven and I and trying to build up a lot of bad press about us. And he went around and interviewed people. He actually found that husband number four. And by then he's got a pretty prestigious church job. It's like, what do you mean? He made, like, in the Mormon church, they're called bishops, so, like, they're head of the local congregation. It's like, he's a bishop, and the bishop is supposed to be really spiritual and wise. And it's like that guy is now a bishop. That guy who kicked my daughter and who was rude and mean to me and didn't have enough respect to think I had a decent job. He's a bishop. It's like, wow, the church is reaching to low heights. [00:39:37] Speaker A: Well, you said something interesting about listening to those around you. And what I think is important to highlight about that is it's just listening and then going to push on those issues yourself. Right. It's not necessarily about, oh, one person doesn't really like this guy or doesn't think the relationship is right because they could be totally wrong. But if they're close enough to you, and you know that they love you. Listen to them and probe that issue yourself to figure out, are they giving you some insightful information, and especially if it's multiple people, or are they just wanting to project what they want for you. But I thought that that was an important thing to highlight because there can be value in the people around you who love you, telling you something that could isolate them from you, especially with a partner. But if they're willing to do that, it's probably for your reason, right? Probably something there. [00:40:37] Speaker B: Yeah. [00:40:37] Speaker A: That takes us to marriage number five. How old were you and what was the circumstances at the time? [00:40:43] Speaker B: Let's see. I was 32. I had a good job. I was still in the same place, living at my mom's and stuff, but I had a good job with a county. And if I'd stayed there, I could have retired from there, but I didn't. And I went to a church camp out for single adults, so you could take your kids camping, you could meet other singles, blah, blah, blah. So I took my daughter. My daughter and I, we just wanted to be able to go camping and do what I did when I was growing up, because that was all great. It's like, yeah, I'm glad we never got too into that because I realized I don't ever need to go camping ever again. But anyway, we got a tent. We pitched the tent, and I don't remember what the food situation was, but then I met this nice guy, and he didn't have his kids with him, but he was charming and cute or handsome, whatever. And we hit it up. There was something I said that was kind of controversial, a church thing that I guess we were talking about polygamy at the time, because the Mormons in the old days were allowed to have multiple wives. And I guess we were talking about that subject, and it's like, well, I'm sure that in heaven you get to have multiple wives. I don't know. I didn't have a problem with the concept, but he was really into that idea and he really wanted that for himself. So this is the weird marriage, except for the guy in prison, but this is the weird marriage because. Anyway, so we got together, technically, and I say this in my book. So it's like we told everybody we got married. We never really got married, but we lived together for five years. So common law, almost legally, common law marriage. Some of the times we'd go to the Mormon church, some of the times we were going to, like, a new age church because we were exploring options, and he wanted to meet other women and be a polygamist. Well, he was not. I mean, he couldn't even manage his own money, so let alone meet women that he could bring into some polygamous relationship. So that was weird because we're living a double life, and that was the hardest part, because it's like, I hate to lie, and so to tell people over here that, number one, we're married, and we're still good Mormons, okay, so that was all a lie. So, technically, we told everybody later we got divorced, so I counted as a divorce, even though there's no divorce on paper, and there's no marriage on paper. So I didn't really intentionally lie to you, but everybody just thinks we got divorced because that's just the way we saw things. But that was hard. But the hardest part, he's been married almost as many times as I have since we split up. Yeah, it's crazy, but he can't even keep a job, let alone have more than one wife at the same time. So his little dream went down the tubes. But I guess there was one point in his life long before I met him, like, with his first wife, and they were doing, like, a multilevel marketing thing, so they made a lot of money. So he knew what it was to have a lot of money and a big house and cool, I'm big man on campus because I got all this money, and I got this big house, and we're doing great. We're successful. They got divorced. He kind of shared custody with his ex and stuff, and finally it was just a disaster. So nothing worked. Right. And it's like, at one point, he talked me into investing some money of a family member that I was helping them with their money, and he lost it all. And he invested it in something where she said, okay, I trust you to invest my money, but don't do it in this. And that's exactly what he was going to invest it in. And so he lost this pot of money, and I had to pay it back. Number one, I had to admit to that person, that's what happened, and that's humiliating. And number two, I had to spend however long it took me to pay that back. And that just put me in financial ruin. And then he and I were just not getting along, and the money was a critical piece of that. So we split up, told everybody we got a divorce. I moved to a different part of town, and it was like, from. We were living in a little suburban neighborhood, nothing fancy, but three bedrooms, and a pool. My daughter and I moved to a little two bedroom apartment downtown, literally next to the railroad tracks. And she was so embarrassed. I think there was one friend of hers that even knew that's where we lived. She would have people drop her off blocks away because she was so embarrassed to have to be in this dinky apartment. And mom's money was tight. Money was terrible. But I still managed. And she was taking ballet, and that's expensive, but she had to cut back on that. And one of the worst parts was, and I can't remember many of the good parts with him, but I remember right after we split up, because the divorce didn't take very long, he met somebody else and married her right away and has a baby right away. And he and I, I think I got pregnant once, but I lost it before it was even very far along. And I was so into, oh, yay, I'm finally pregnant. This is super. I had names picked out. I was already buying baby clothes. Okay. This was even well before, like the twelve week mark when you're supposed to go to the doctor. It's like, by the time I got to the doctor, pregnancy test was positive. By the time I saw the doctor, it's like, I'm not getting anything. It didn't take. It's like, are you kidding me? And he marries her, has this boy names it what I was going to name a boy if we'd had a boy. And I didn't do it intentionally. And they went on to have like three kids, I think, at least. And because of the financial ruin I was in, I ended up having to file bankruptcy. The amount he owed me was several thousand dollars, but I ended up going to bankruptcy court. And hen he walks because he's this cause of my bankruptcy. And he did admit that in court, but it's like, and he walks with the wife and all the babies. I was like, you had to bring them all. You had to just rub that in my face that you're happily married and have three more kids. [00:47:11] Speaker A: Right. [00:47:12] Speaker B: Great. Thanks so much. So that was hard. And again, I think one of the main, really find out about somebody's finances before you get hooked up with them or on a permanent basis. And really, do they have a job? Are they stable enough? I don't need somebody to be living in a mansion. We'll get to number seven in a minute. But I don't need them to be super rich. I do need them to be stable enough so that we're not scraping the barrel, especially at my age. But even in my late 30s, early 40s, you hope by then your partner is going to be stable enough to know how to provide for his family. That isn't always the case, but it's something you should look into before you get married or live together. [00:48:03] Speaker A: Yeah, that's like the number one premarital planning discussion that I encourage people to take is. And it doesn't mean that finances is always going to be a cause of divorce, depending on the circumstance. But is ask questions, have hard conversations. Not just what is your income, but what are your money goals? How do you spend, how do you save? Do you carry debt? What debt do you have? What's your plan to pay it off? And what are some exciting, fun things? Like, exciting, fun goals you want to achieve? And how can money support that? Sometimes the answer is, my goals don't require that. Some are. Well, my goals are to travel. So money towards travel is important, but just talk about it. It's so important and it can lead you to have so many other conversations that are also important. Again, focusing on goals. What are your life goals? Finances can also lead to the conversation about children. So it's just a starting point. But so many people get weird about money, and the last place you need to feel weird about money is when you're getting into a legal contract to marry somebody. So I like that. That's kind of where we are. In the lessons of your experience, is that financial discussion? Because I really pack that punch to a lot of people when I talk about premarital planning, is talk about all of the money issues, put it all on the table, and it's never going to be a bad thing. Even if there are problems, that's usually not going to be a reason the marriage can't continue. It just means, okay, we need to figure out how to get on the same page. [00:49:48] Speaker B: We don't get to number seven. [00:49:50] Speaker A: Yeah, well, let's get to marriage number six. [00:49:55] Speaker B: Okay. So by now, I'm like 39, and I met another guy at a church singles dance, and he was black. Not that that mattered at all to me. We got along. We had met at some conference before, so I knew he was a nice guy. I knew he had a good job. I didn't know a lot about him, but he was a great dancer and we had a lot of fun on the dance floor, and we would talk and we started just having fun. So that was cool. He had a few kids, some of them only one of them lived with him, but he wanted to get engaged quickly. And I said, yeah, not right away. But then my daughter was going to. By now she's a junior in high school, and she got accepted to go to Japan as a foreign exchange student, and she was going to be leaving that I. Somehow my subconscious was just saying, oh, you don't want to be alone. You must not want. So then I accepted his proposal, and by then she was mad at me and he could have lived an hour away from me, but it was, like, several towns over, so it was a longer drive. But it's like. So I remember we did get married. My daughter boycotted the wedding. She refused to go. It was like, come on, she's a junior. I guess she had. But when we got back to the apartment to open presents, she had tidied up the apartment and decorated things with, like, wedding bows and things. So that was very nice of her. But the lesson here is, don't get married just because you're going to be afraid of being living alone. That just doesn't work out. The other thing is, she's a teenager. I wasn't around to supervise her as much as she needed. And it's like, what do you mean, you're drunk? What do you mean? You're at the hospital. And it's like, what do you mean you drank too much? And what do you mean you're at this party and there's drinking. Where are the parents? It's like, because now I'm concentrating on dating this guy, and my 16 year old is partying. It's like, oh, that's not good. So it's like, I get that as adults, we need a life. We need a life. She's kind of in the same way now. She's in her 40s, she's a single mom. She's got teenagers. She's dating. It's like, so when do you trust your kids? And it's a hard issue. Or how do you trust your kids and how much trust? How? When do you leave them alone? How much do you leave them alone? But I didn't do that well. And when we got married, between the time we got married and then her going to Japan, we would spend a weekend at my apartment with her and then the next weekend at his place, and we would go to church in both. Oh, it was exhausting. It was really exhausting. And she left for Japan. I moved to his house and she came home. She refused. Even though she was still in high school, she refused to move in with us because she wasn't going to live there. She didn't like him. She didn't like his son. She was not going to live in that town. But it was interesting because he and I was like, oh, now my daughter's home. I can spend time with her. It's like, oh, this marriage isn't as fun as I thought it was going to be. So we're going to split up. So I moved in with her for a while, and then he started trying to woo me again. It's like, okay, I'll give it another shot. And again, we weren't married that long. A year or so. I don't know. I think we made our first anniversary, but don't quote me. I don't even remember. And then I started going to therapy because I was seeing some problems and he was like, well, you know, we're having problems. Why don't you come to therapy with me? Oh, no, it's all your fault. I'm not going like, excuse me. Okay, bye. I have no patience with people who won't try and work through things with me. And I have no patience with a married partner telling me it's all my fault because it clearly wasn't all my fault. It was meant to be my stopgap relationship while my daughter was gone. I see that now. It was a silly thing to do. I did it anyway. But again, if you're not willing to work out the bugs with me, then what's the point of staying here? And I'm just better now at cutting things off before it takes too long. We didn't decide right away to file divorce papers. It's like, what's the hurry? I'm not interested in dating right now. There's no rush. And it's not like we ever tried to get back together again. But finally, it's like, really, we're not going to get back together. So let's just file the paperwork. [00:54:51] Speaker A: Well, I'm getting anxious because I feel like it's come up so many times, but I feel like I'm ready to know about marriage number seven. [00:54:59] Speaker B: Okay, big lesson here is don't marry somebody in prison unless you knew him before he went to prison. Maybe. [00:55:07] Speaker A: Guess it depends on why he's there. [00:55:10] Speaker B: True. And it's funny because when I grew up, my family's philosophy was, well, if you're in prison, you must be guilty. There's a reason you're there. Case closed. Now, if you go to a prison visiting room and you're looking around the room at all these happy people visiting their spouses or their parents, they just look like normal happy people. And then the ex, well, that guy's the head of that gang. That guy's killed that many people. That guy's running drugs in here or running his drug business from here. It's like he's just visiting his nice mom. That guy looks so friendly. That's a serial killer. Oh, my gosh. So you can't judge a book by its cover. But anyway, the lesson here is don't marry somebody in prison. And again, find out. Check out your facts. Don't blindly believe everything somebody tells you. I was at 43 when we got married or when we got together. And we actually courted for five years because we're in our forty s. And part of the reason why I kept getting married was I thought I needed to find a dad for my daughter. Well, by then I don't need one. My daughter is happily living. She wasn't married yet, but she was happily living with her soon to be husband. My roommate came home one day and said, oh, I met this really nice guy because her husband was in prison and he's smart and he's visiting. His mom said, smart. That would be a new kind of boyfriend for me. Let's try that out. I'd been to visit prison, at prison, so that didn't scare me. And so we started writing. He's a year older than I am, so we started writing. Okay, now we're the same age, so we understand the same things, kind of. It's like if you mention a music group, you know who that was because you would have both listened to that, maybe when you're teenagers. He had great stories about living different places with his family because they were in the military. And eventually he had great stories about his military experiences. And we talked about food and this and that and this and that. And he had kids, and I have the one. And eventually there were grandkids coming along, so we were talking about all these fun things and like, okay. And that's cool. Eddie had a fascinating military career. I do believe he's in prison for something he did not do. But he has a life sentence because it involves murder. But he's really charming. And we had these great conversations. And we were just one of those happy couples in the visiting room. And it was so sweet when he would hold my hand or we go get food and he'd hold my hand, and that's about all you could do. You could hug at the beginning and end and a little kiss, and that was about it. But I found myself. I met him and he was so charming and interesting and I was learning so many new things about life and the worldview. It's like, oh, I don't need that church anymore. Not that he said, you need to visit me. Leave the church. It's like, I don't need that church anymore. And I'd rather spend time talking to this interesting man rather than spend all day in church. This is cool. And again, we could visit, like, three afternoons a week, and I'm spanning a lot of time here. But he talked my roommate and I into starting a publishing company because he'd had one and he'd made it so successful, like, okay. And we tried it, and it's like, the products were good. We produced a great magazine and a great newspaper, but neither of us were good at selling advertising. You needed sales to actually make it work. And eventually it didn't. But I made it go for two years and several years. And I published two of his fiction novels. And he was a prolific writer, so this man could do nothing wrong. And he had this air of confidence, like, I'm God. I am this cool, good, cool person, and everybody likes me, and I'm this military hero, which he is. But it was like, don't rock the boat. Everything of his sounded like such a great idea that you just naturally. I. I just naturally wanted to help him with his projects. Yes. If I could keep doing my job, that was great. But I stopped. Now, this is. This is where it's like, he convinced me to leave my accounting job to start this business that I had no idea what I was doing, except that I knew how to do the books. But it's like I didn't know what I was doing. I'm a good student. I can produce a good product. But I was not a marketing person. I'm still not a marketing person. It's very hard, but it worked for me. I will tell you exactly how to do it. Okay. That didn't work. We didn't follow his plan exactly. And again, over the years, he would give me great ideas to try and help him. I did a lot of research for his writings. That was great. He introduced me to a lot of topics which I love now. And I used to go out as his spokesperson and talk at conferences about certain military things he was involved with. But it wasn't until almost Covid and I'd already poured a ton of money because I moved into his family house in northern California and helped his mom for a few years while she had dementia. And then she died. So now I'm in this house all by myself, and it's over a hundred years old, and it's just a money pit. But he remembers it as his family childhood home, and it's got this great memory, and it's beautiful and la la and the great gardens. I go, well, it's not like that. And I can't work full time and totally keep it up like you remember it to be Shangri La. It was crazy because I didn't realize till we'd been together. We were together 25 years. I didn't realize till after we'd been together, like 20, more than 20, that things really were going so well. And it's like, oh, okay, well, why do you like me? Why did we get married? Well, you know I love you because we got married. Okay, but why? What do you like about me? To this day, he cannot articulate what he likes about me. He just thought that was so ludicrous for a man to have to tell his wife that. Because obviously I must like you and I must love you if I've stayed with you all this long. It's like, okay, that's great, but a wife wants to hear what you like about them every now and then. I don't need to be showered with compliments every day, all day. It's like, you can't take me out to dinner and you can't take me to a movie. You can't take me for that long drive you keep talking about. We can't go dancing at the top of whatever hotel you're telling me about or know in San Francisco. There's some cool places to go to dinner and dancing. You can't take me like, so you got to tell me what you like. You can't give me flowers, so you got to give me something. And he could never do that. He would hardly compliment me. And then again, as we're splitting up, it's like, well, you don't want to make out with me. You don't want to hardly touch me. Basically stepped a hug near. And it's like, you should have tried to be prettier. You just said that. As we're untangling things, it's like, well, you started your business in my house and then turned your back on all my needs. I go, excuse me. My business was making all the money. And so here, then we come to the money. Because when I met him, I knew through the military and through investments he's made and whatever, he supposedly has property in many places around the world. He supposedly had a pot of money somewhere, like, over there in some investment house. And I never saw it. I never really saw proof of it. I saw inklings, but I never saw any of his money. But he always acted like he had a lot of it and that he had a lot of it, like he was given an allowance from his investments. Okay. It looks like for a while, he bought me a few nice gifts at the beginning of our relationship. Yay. A washing machine and a refrigerator. But I did get a nice piece of jewelry or two. That was cool. But again, once I started realizing that my needs were not being met and started bringing that up, it's like, what do you mean? It was like, what do you mean? I'm taking care of you. I've let you live in this house. And, yes, it's a nice neighborhood, but the house is 100 years old, and it's falling apart, and I can't keep up with it. I'm trying to work, and now I've got to put another eight grand into that part of the roof, another eight grand into that sewer pipe, another whatever. So I put over 100 grand into that house, and no. Did I have to pay rent? No, I get that. But I've always told you I would take care of you when I got out. I go, I don't know when you're getting out. You have a life without parole sentence. All the remedies keep getting squashed. It's like, dude, I can't work till I'm 90 and drop dead at my computer. But as long as I was following the plan, following his ideas, and going along with the flow and not poking the bear, we were fine. And then I got into my sixty s and going, oh, crap, I want to retire at some point. I can't afford it. I did start sepira, so I do have a little bit of money in savings. Not as much as most people my age would like to have in savings. I'm still going to retire next year sometime, because I'm just not going to wait till I'm 90. And he can't tell me not to. But I said, well, let's have a plan if we need to downsize the house or at least get rid of some of the crap. Because there was his stuff in there, my stuff, his parents stuff. I could never fully unpack, even though I lived in that house for 20 years, because there was so much stuff and there was no place to go, and he didn't want to get rid of any of it. Till this day, he doesn't want to get rid of any of it. I left there during COVID because I was so tired of the house I was in by myself and feeling so isolated, and things were falling apart. And my family was going to say, you need to leave. You need to move. It's like, this is too much for you to keep paying for it. And it's like, so again, I'm being financially abused, and he doesn't get any of that. And so I left. And then he immediately assumed I was leaving him. I go, no, I just need to get out of the house. And I've left a caretaker there, even though that didn't work out. We tried to keep going and get along, but then he'd get. And then I just started poking the bear, and it's like, I need answers about this. This. We need a plan to pay for the house that doesn't involve me. You have money. Where is it? The only time I ever saw money was $500 to help me fix one of the holes in the roof. And that took months to get. But it's like, okay, you've got kids. Can't they help us? You've got a pile of money over there. Why can't you release some of that? Oh, you told me you sold this asset. Where's the money? And so I'm finding all these things several years later now that probably he lied about. And it's so frustrating because the divorce was final in May, and we're going to have to sell the house because nobody's living in it, and it's falling apart, and I'm not paying for it anymore. And we're trying to sell things just to pay off this one little last piece of a bank loan so that they don't foreclose on your household. We try to help save it for you. He's still convinced that I want to grab all his assets, like in Europe and wherever else they might be, but I don't want any of your shit. I'm not going to take your kids houses that you've put them in. I don't care what you have. I couldn't bring all that stuff over. It's like, I don't have any place for that. Why would I want it? I don't have any legal right to it. And you're still worried that somehow I'm going to try and grab it. I go, our divorce says nobody owes anything, anybody, anything. The money he owes me mostly is due from his trust that was supposed to fund the asset. So, yeah, you owe me for half of the divorce. Yeah, you owe me for half of these repairs that I've had to do since the divorce, but I don't know that I'll ever get it. [01:07:37] Speaker A: There are plenty of people who go after every little thing that exactly find. And so I think a theme throughout our conversation today has kind of been you just mostly just wanting to get out and start fresh, and it's allowed you to kind of have all these different experiences along the way. Good, bad, interesting, different. Right. But being able to make the decision to say money is money, and yes, it is important for the things that you need to live your life, but I just need to get out, move on. You keep yours, and let's move forward. And I think that's not right for everybody, but it can be right in the moment for certain situations. And I think that kind of was a narrative that was sewn together through these experiences. [01:08:26] Speaker B: Well, and the interesting thing about the money is his family supposedly assumed I was this gold digger because, yes, I was impressed that he had money or supposedly had money. Again, I've never seen any of it, but his whole story to me this whole time was that his family all this time thought I was this gold digger. Like, well, I have a couple of pieces of jewelry that I have now sold, thank you very much. And he goes, well, they wanted me to do this prenup before we got married, but I trusted you, so I said no. And because I'm marrying you, I'm going to get cut off from my allowance. I'm going, well, maybe you should have done a prenup, because then I would have had proof that you had money. [01:09:05] Speaker A: Right? [01:09:06] Speaker B: Because now you just create these stories that I can't even improve. It's like, supposedly he sold this asset to help take care of the house. And it's like, I wanted to see proof of that. I wanted to see, okay, how much cleared from that sale? So now we can plan how the money needs to be spent to save your house. Well, why are you demanding to see that? It's like, what's the, you know, we're married. I'm your wife. I should see this. [01:09:30] Speaker A: Know the great little antidote in support of pre marital agreements. [01:09:34] Speaker B: Yes, thank you. I would definitely be in support of that from now on, but I don't ever need to get married again. So there we are. [01:09:43] Speaker A: So what's next for Joanne? [01:09:45] Speaker B: Joanne is writing her second book, so I just finished the first draft of that. So that is wonderfully healing because that's all about the narcissist, because he is a classic narcissist, and Joanne is happy with her cats. She's happy living in Oregon. She's happy walking. I'm going to little activities that I love. I'm dipping my toes into seeing what the dating world is possibly like. It's terrifying. It's terrifying. But I'm getting out there. And again, yes, the holidays are coming. Would I like somebody to go do some fun holiday activities with? Because if my daughter's not going to be available for everything, I want to go do and just, I want to have a life. I've already gone on one cruise, like, right as the divorce is becoming final because I didn't know we were in the last. I went on a cruise with my sister and her husband. That was fun. It's like, look at Joanne's out getting some adventure, and Joanne's got another cruise planned for next spring. So it's like, okay, Joanne's going to. I'm not going to sit back and wait for life to happen to me. I'm not gonna sit and wait to think. I need to have a man in my life because I can clearly support myself with that one. But it would be fun to have friends and maybe a partner to have some fun with. That would be nice. But in the meantime, I'm really happy with who I am. I am so blunt now about who I am. Oh, look at you. You've got a voice now and you're saying the hard stuff. It is what it is, and I'm trying to surround my people or attract the people that are like minded enough so that we're going to get along. And you're not going to be freaked out that I've been married seven times and you're not going to be freaked out that I'm a witch. Come on. Right. [01:11:41] Speaker A: And where can we find more information about Joanne? Your book coming out and things that you're doing. [01:11:48] Speaker B: The one book I have is called Midlife Magic. It's on Amazon and everything, and it's under the old married name of Richards. It's also on my website, Dragonhillbooks. Net. The new book is called the Prince was wrong because that's his nickname and he was wrong and he didn't want to ever be told he was wrong. I have a new website, joannefosst.com. It's not quite ready yet, but you can email me at info at or Joanne at. And you know, there's going to be an email form pretty soon. I'm going to start doing a newsletter to keep people updated. I'm setting a goal of a launch date for next June because I just finished the rough draft, and now we start the revisions. I've been working with a book coach, and I'm speaking on as many podcasts as I can just because I want to help people not make all the same blunders that I did and just help people who are. This is painful going through this stuff, and it's messy, but that doesn't mean you have to define your life by it. So I choose not to define my life by the crap. [01:12:55] Speaker A: I feel like that's like the perfect bookend of this conversation, is not defining your life by certain things that have happened, regardless of what those are. I think divorce is one of those stigma things that people let define them at times. So I love that kind of being our end to this conversation. Well, Joanne, thank you so much for your time today. [01:13:14] Speaker B: I really appreciate it. Oh, you're so welcome. Thank you. For know you have a little kid at home. Know she'll probably be waking up soon. [01:13:22] Speaker A: Any minute now. Any minute now, probably. [01:13:25] Speaker B: But thank you. And thank you for doing your work. I love your attitude about divorce, and you would have been a good lawyer for me. [01:13:33] Speaker A: Well, thank you. I appreciate that. I will stay in touch and hope to talk soon. [01:13:37] Speaker B: Well, thank you so much. Take good care. You don't.